Brain Traffic CEO and author Kristina Halvorson has helped guide digital content strategy for the past 25 years. She’s seen some organizations evolve their digital maturity, while others remain stuck in the past. To succeed, organizations must be clearly aligned on what they mean when they talk about content strategy.
If a company says, “We are all about being customer-centric,” and they are not investing in fixing very basic stuff on the website—when people hit it, and they’re like, “I need to find this information in two seconds.” And instead, they’re burying them in storytelling and video and wayfinding and all this other crap that nobody cares about. That is not a customer-centric organization.
Kristina believes that digital maturity is baked into an organization’s core values, which starts with the approach from leadership and trickles down throughout the team. In other words, digital maturity is a reflection of company culture, which can’t be changed from the outside. Culture change must come from leadership.
Unless you have a leader in that organization willing to sit down with an open mind and listen to your third-party expertise and what you have seen a million times and willing to sort of shift their perspective and change course… Unless you have that blessed opportunity, you cannot navigate it from the outside. Period. You cannot.
Kristina Halvorson
Kristina Halvorson is the founder and CEO of Brain Traffic and the author of Content Strategy for the Web.
Relevant links
- Content Strategy for the Web (2009)
- Confab: The Content Strategy Conference
- Button: A new conference for people who are excited about product content strategy, content design, and UX writing
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Episode transcript
Note: This transcript may contain some minor wording and formatting errors. Apologies in advance!
[Voiceover] Welcome to The Future of Content, a podcast exploring how we create, manage and distribute content. Brought to you by Four Kitchens: We make BIG websites. [Todd] Welcome to The Future of Content. I’m your host, Todd Nienkerk. Every episode, we invite a guest to explore an aspect of content and to make predictions about the future of that content. If you create, manage, or publish content, welcome. This podcast is for you. Today we’re talking about content strategy for the web. Our guest is Kristina Halvorson, the author of Content Strategy for the Web, CEO and founder of Brain Traffic and founder of Confab. Welcome to The Future of Content, Kristina. [Kristina] Thanks, Todd. It’s great to be here. Everything looks so different. [Todd] Everything looks so different? [Kristina] From the past of content. The future past, I don’t know. [Todd] Well, so let’s get into that. I’m going to ask a very obvious question first, but I feel like it’s the kind of thing that you probably answer 10 times a day, but it’s also the kind of thing that a lot of people are constantly thinking about. And that is how do you define content strategy, and how do most other people define that? [laughter] [Kristina] Okay. We have 30 minutes, right? So it’s not you’re just going to ask that one question, right? [Todd] Yeah. That’s it. Let’s go. Thirty minutes. Definition. [Kristina] Okay. So when I wrote Content Strategy for the Web, it was pretty straightforward because really we were talking about websites, right? And so when I sort of threw out—and it really was like throwing out a definition—it was: “content strategy guides planning for the creation, delivery, and governance of useful, usable content.” And that did a couple of things. It sort of defined— It sort of grounded content strategy in the practice of UX, right, because we’re talking about useful and usable content and not just, like, entertaining content. It also helped point to the content life cycle versus just, “All right. The wireframes are done. Let’s go ahead and add in the copy to replace the lorem ipsum,” which was kind of how 98% of everybody thought about it at that point. But then it also pointed to governance, which was actually caring for content after you put it online. So it was kind of trying to cover off all these bases where 10, 11 years ago people just were not talking about this in a larger web dev community and design community. So fast-forward to now where content strategy is very clearly and established and widely practiced field in agencies and organizations, obviously. However, we also have content marketing. We also have content design. We also have content engineering. And coming up is content ops. And there are approximately a million different conversations taking place across all of these different fields which ultimately are all interdependent upon one another. So now when I talk about content strategy, I kind of lead my answer with, “Well, it depends.” And something that we have found at Brain Traffic over the last couple of years is that ultimately what’s most important is that an organization is very clearly aligned on what they mean when they talk about content strategy. So for example, when I teach Intro to Content Strategy, or when we teach here at Brain Traffic, we open that day-long session with, “Here’s how we started talking about content strategy, but here are eight different frameworks that you can use to talk about content strategy.” And typically one of them will really resonate with an organization, and then that’s kind of how we move forward with the deck. I literally could talk about this for 30 minutes. [Todd] Of course. So it sounds as though when— Because I’ve experienced this even within our own organization where we draw certain lines around what we consider to be content strategy. And therefore, what we do, it’s a very “in sight, in mind, out of sight, out of mind” kind of definition of content strategy. But it’s also like this issue of, okay, how do you define what you do seems to be so pervasive in the web industry overall. It’s not just content strategy, right? It’s like UX, or “what is UX?” Well, it depends. And then an organization has defined it on their own, but that may not be what an independent UX professional might think. Why do you think we have this problem of just defining what we do within the web industry and not having commonly understood definitions? [Kristina] Oh, I have a very strong opinion on this, which is that every organization no matter what the industry, what the size, any of that, every organization is at a different level of digital maturity. And so if you are an organization who is still like, “Content marketing is the way of the future,” and is just cranking out tons of content and just throwing it out on 80 different platforms or channels, and marketing is where all of the budget is, and everything is focused on lead generation. And then trailing behind is like support content or any sort of integration with email marketing or email confirmation. And the product teams are stuck in Agile hell without any kind of writing support except there’s one writer supporting like eight teams. If that is where your organization is, design and content are going to mean very different things than if you are a super-mature organization who has completely integrated its digital practices and rules across the silos where everybody is very clear on the the role and responsibilities that they have when it comes to the product or the website or the process or the care-taking and oversight of your digital products. It’s going to mean something different. And so that’s why. Because where everybody sits, from where everybody is looking, they’re all looking at a different window. [Todd] And you think that that level of digital maturity— Does that have to do with—and I’m going to have to rely on a lot of industry buzzwords here to try to ask this question—do you feel like this is where they currently lie on a digital transformation spectrum, or is this just like— Is it the overall age of the business versus how long they’ve kind of converted to a more digital workflow? What do you think leads to a high level of digital maturity or a low level? [Kristina] I think that it is 100% baked into the core values of the organization, which are embodied by leadership. And so whether or not those values are articulated, or if they are just written on the wall, and then the values are otherwise acted out in a completely different way, whatever those values are are shaping how people are treating and investing in and practicing and growing their digital disciplines. If a company says, “We are all about being customer-centric,” and they are not investing in fixing very basic stuff on the website—when people hit it, and they’re like, “I need to find this information in two seconds.” And instead, they’re burying them in storytelling and video and wayfinding and all this other crap that nobody cares about. That is not a customer-centric organization. And so I think that— And I just think it’s those core values. I think it’s customer centricity. I think it is understanding true collaboration. I think it is about empowering your digital professionals to go out and learn about what is changing and what best practices are and actually investing that time and energy. I think it is about giving people space to create communities of practice internally, which take time and energy and away from sort of traditional productivity and let’s make the thing. It’s just giving people room to breathe and room to grow. And that to me is going to signal how quickly an organization is going to mature. [Todd] Interesting. So from that perspective, do you ever get called into an organization to do that level of consulting? Again, I’m going to start butting heads with like, “Well, depends on what your definition of content strategy is,” but the idea of helping organizations give their people space to breathe and grow in that way that you just said. [Kristina] Yeah. That’s a really good question because to me that kind of consulting really digs into change management, right? Like okay, everybody is running on their hamster wheels, and we want to really shift culture so that people understand that they need to allocate and provide them with time to do more exploration or sharing of best practices or conversation or whatever. That gets into kind of change management. That is not really what we do. Having said that, we definitely at Brain Traffic are at this point entering organizations very, very early in the process of a large-scale website redesign or rethinking their content marketing program or trying to talk about how they’re going to restructure teams for efficiency, right? The thing is that I don’t believe that company culture can be changed from the outside, and we have run into that over and over where we come in, and we’re like, “Hey, content is important.” And this manager understands that, but we need to help this manager sell that up the food chain. It doesn’t work. It doesn’t work. It has to come from leadership. So I mean, I guess to answer your question, do we come in and try to help give people space to grow? We can’t. That has to come from leadership. What we can do is we can go in, and we can model best practices. We can facilitate conversations that help people see— Look, you want to know why your competition is burying you. It is because this is what we know, or what we suspect about their culture and their practices and their work structure and their investments in content and not content creation but in the processes in caretaking of content. [Todd] This is something that we’ve wrestled with for many years at our agency, and the diagram that I keep going back to—and I assume this is original work from Nancy Lyons at Clockwork Media—but there’s a pyramid that she put up on a screen in one of her talks recently where— It’s like a diagram of digital transformation. And at the bottom, there are values and then people and then processes, technology, and results. And you can’t get to results without having all those other things below it. You can’t get to people without having underlying values, and those values, of course, to tie that with what you’re saying, come from leadership. I think about that diagram like pretty much every day because you and I are both agency owners, and the thing that we keep running into is this idea of change management. And like you, it is not what we do, and yet, somehow it’s exactly what we do, or we’re expected, or we realize that that’s the wall that we hit. And if we could only somehow break through that and affect real change within an organization, then so many aspects of their business or whatever problem they’re trying to solve would be… maybe not be cured but would be alleviated. How do you manage the challenge of running up against the wall of change management and knowing that the solution is just on the other side but as we as outside parties can’t fully get there? [Kristina] We have worked with hundreds and hundreds of companies over the last 15 years, and 90% of them, we run up against that wall. And you really have one of two choices. You can either try to get an audience with an executive level which, I mean, I will say that most of our engagements now, we are walking in at more of that higher level management. But in the past, when you run into it, usually you try to get an audience with that and hope that you can get a light bulb to go off with that leadership, which can happen sometimes. Or you have your client partner has their ear, and you can give them a good case or a good business case to take to leadership to begin to effect change. But I mean, I will tell you that, for example, we just recently put together— We were called in by a VP, a couple of VPs that were like, “Okay. We’re going to do this right this time. We’ve got this massive website transformation that we’re going to do. We’ve read your book. We have been waiting for this opportunity for three years, and we’re going to lead with content strategy.” We’re like, “Great. This is the dream. This is when you’re supposed to call us in.” And they’re like, “Okay. Here’s our early web strategy. We want you to come in. We want you to validate it, look at everything through this lens of content.” And we’re like, “Great.” We put together this consulting proposal, and we were super excited about it. And the VP took it and put it in front of the CMO, and the CMO was just like, “Well, why can’t the agency just do this? Why can’t we just hire an agency who we know is going to build the website, and then they just do this?” And what happens then is that content or content strategy becomes a line item along the way, right? Either if they’re going to develop by Agile, then it is the writer in the room, right, or—this is specifically from an agency side, no offense [laughter] but—or it becomes, “Okay. Well, the content, we don’t need to pay for the content person to be along for the research because it’s the UX person’s job, the UX team’s job. They’ll just deliver the research to the content person when it’s time for the content.” And that is how the CMO sees content. And the CMO is also talking about, “And we need to tell really good stories.” We have to walk away from that. I’m not going to fight that because that is an entrenched mindset of the role of content that this CMO is going to cling to and without really being able to take the time to demonstrate— Look, if you don’t ask these questions, get these answers about content super early in your process around the content and experience design, around how the content is going to need to be modeled, around who’s going to own the content, how it’s going flow throughout the organization, all these different areas, if you cannot communicate that complexity to leadership, leadership is just going to be like, “Everybody can write. Just find a good writer. It will be fine.” I’m not going to fight that. [Todd] We ran into the same thing on the implementation side. We do lots of stuff, but the majority of our business is in the build. We will build the website or the app or whatever. And so many people treat that as a line item or as a commodity, and the website then is just like it’s an installation of Word, or it’s the printer that you bought or something, and it then, therefore, is handed off to an ITS team whose jobs also involve things like maintaining the phone system and email routing and all of this stuff. And the website is not a software license that you must update once a year. Your website is, at a minimum, going to be your primary gateway to the world or marketing channel, but it could also and most likely is your actual product as an organization. And it doesn’t seem to, in more cases than not, it doesn’t seem to be treated as such. And I’m not sure if that’s because it’s just the idea of a website from start to finish like its purposes, its goals, its content, how people use it, the governance, the user permissions, the look and feel, and the code, and all the stuff, tying it all together, it just feels so giant. It’s just like a mountain, and you stand at the base of it. You look at that, and you’re like, “I don’t even know where to start.” I don’t know if it’s that kind of paralysis that people experience and, therefore, just kind of want to hire somebody to make it go away or to just kind of handle the problem. But I feel like every aspect of our industry is met with this, “We’ll just treat all of these things as line items.” But what they really need, in our experience—I’m curious to hear if you feel the same way—is they need like a real partner, and they need to make real organizational change in order to be successful with any of the stuff that they want to do. [Kristina] Well, I think that—I mean, yes. But that’s an agency standing outside saying, you need to be different. You need to be completely different before you’re going to fully understand the scope and breadth and depth of these problems because we’re talking about—and any content person, I’m sure you’ll say this, too—will tell you that a website in particular is really just a manifestation of the organization itself. So [inaudible] tweeted a couple of years ago, and I somehow just came across this, “Show me your website, and I will tell you how your company is organized,” right? [Todd] Oh, yes. [Kristina] Yeah. And so for example—if I’m being perfectly blunt, I feel like—I stood on stage 10 years ago with Jeremy Keith and Luke Wroblewski and Ethan Marcotte and Karen McGrane and Brad Frost and people who were inventing the web and are still inventing the web. And every day, we are also waking up being like, “Oh, man. We thought we solved that problem, but now here’s 10 more,” right? And so I think to ask organizations to really keep up with the complexity of a website even, for example, which is just like this— It’s an ecosystem. It’s like its own living, breathing organism of complexities. I don’t feel like there’s going to be the “here’s exactly how we should go about building website.” I don’t think that that book that could have been written in 2000 about, “Okay. Start at the beginning with discovery and research—” I don’t think that exists anymore, and I think people are really still trying to figure it out. And I think that the organizations that are closest to having figured it out have all been born within the last like eight to 10 years because they were able to start in that complex digital environment and understand the landscape and understand the dependencies and interdependencies and complexities and start from there, right? So it’s a huge— And again, when we’re dealing with executive leadership, one of the number one things that any executive is afraid to admit is that they don’t know the answer. [Todd] Right. Right. If you had to compare, thinking about how like a website is an ecosystem, and we’re all still figuring it out—and I fully agree with all of that—if you had to compare a website to something else in the world, what would you compare it to? [Kristina] Oh, a city. Wouldn’t you? Like a dense city. [Todd] I want to hear all about that metaphor. Let’s get into it. What are some aspects of a city that align with a website? [Kristina] Where do you start? If you have to say, “In order for a website to be successful, you have to have X,” what do you say? [Todd] I would say goals. And then next would be people. [Kristina] Yeah. I would just sort of sum it all up with purpose. Like the number of times I have shut down a room just by saying, “Look, what do you have a website for in the first place? Why do you have this?” And everybody, just their eyes fly open, and they all look at each other [laughter], and they’re just like, “Oh my God. I can’t believe she’s asking this in front of everybody.” [Todd] That’s basically asking that room like, “Why are we all alive? What purpose do we serve?” [Kristina] Yeah. But that would probably stop them in their tracks, too. So understanding purpose. And in that sense, I guess if we dig into the metaphor, what I would suggest is that that’s what we really call that foundation. And I mean, at that pyramid that you described, I mean, that’s basically— You and I are both implementing the Entrepreneurial Operating System based on the book Traction. That’s basically what we’re building, right? You start with values. You move on to the accountability chart. You’re still talking about infrastructure. I mean, it’s not rocket science. But, so many websites are built either on just like a super cracked foundation or just sand. Just like it started 25 years ago, “Oh, we need a website. Everybody else has a website. We got to have a website so that we look legit.” And then it was never— [Todd] And that has to look better because it looks old now. [Kristina] Yeah. But every time organizations are like, “We’re going to just rip this thing down wholesale and start from scratch,” they really start with the core foundation of “what is this website here to do for our business and for our audiences?” And those core questions are really, I mean, if you go to a crappy website, those questions have not been appropriately answered. [Todd] So as consultants, trying to elicit that information about purpose, what’s the purpose of the website, to what extent do you think it is actually possible for us to really guide the right answer to that question versus at some point we hit the wall of change management where this goes deeper than the people in the room and the values as a company? [Kristina] If you hit that wall, unless you have a leader in that organization willing to sit down with an open mind and listen to your third-party expertise and what you have seen a million times and willing to sort of shift their perspective and change course, unless you have that blessed opportunity, you cannot navigate it from the outside. Period. You cannot. And I don’t mean to sound— I don’t mean to sound like jaded or, “Oh, change can’t happen.” I’m just saying, as an “industry thought leader,” I can inspire. I can educate. I can facilitate conversation. I can challenge. I can speak difficult truths. But I cannot lead change within somebody else’s house. I can’t do it. [Todd] That makes sense. [Kristina] Sorry. I mean, wait, wait. I can do it, and it costs 10 million dollars. [laughter] Call me immediately. [Todd] Now, we’re getting into value pricing, and that’s going to be a whole other [laughter]— Okay. Let’s take a short break, and when we return, we will not talk about value pricing. Instead, we will talk about events, content strategy events like Confab and Button. [Voiceover] The Future of Content is brought to you by Four Kitchens. Our team creates digital experiences that delight, scale and deliver measurable results. Whether you need an accessibility audit, a dedicated support team or a world-class digital experience platform, the Web Chefs have you covered. Four Kitchens: We make BIG websites. [Todd] Welcome back to The Future of Content. Our guest today is Kristina Halvorson, author of Content Strategy of the Web and one of the leading voices in content strategy. And so speaking of leading voices, let’s talk about Confab and Button, two conferences that you created and organized. I am very interested in hearing about the content of conferences. So one of the things I’ve noticed about Confab when I’ve attended is the quality of the talks, the sessions, are significantly higher. There’s much more polish to them than in most conferences, perhaps not surprising since it is about content strategy and producing good work. But as I understand it, there is a significantly competitive methodology, or like the expectations of applying for a session at Confab can be pretty high. And I know some people have submitted videos that they’ve produced simply to apply. How do you go through and organize all of that content for an event like Confab? [Kristina] That is an excellent question. I want to say upfront we actually require a video from people. But it doesn’t have to be a video of you giving your talk. I mean, very early on in the process, one of our most popular talks of the year was given by a guy who for his video submitted how to slice and fry plantains. That was his video demonstration of himself speaking, and it was brilliant. So yeah. Yeah. This year we had, for like 20 spots, I think we had 380 submissions. And yeah. And so at this point in time, it works okay because— So the programming happens totally internally. We don’t have an advisory board. We don’t open it up to the larger community. We manage it internally. [Todd] Internally within Brain Traffic? [Kristina] Correct. And so our director of events Tenessa Gemelke does sort of the initial pass. And then we split the proposals, and we read them evenly, and then we kind of go into a period of negotiation and programming, which involves topic, quality of speaker; where the speaker works, or if they’re freelance, where in the world the speaker is from; whether or not they’re a member of a underrepresented group, which, of course, we’re really committed to getting diversity and inclusivity on our stages; whether or not they’ve spoken at Confab before. I mean, it is literally like, if people are like, “I’ve submitted to Confab eight times. I’ve never gotten a spot.” It’s just like maybe your proposal made it to the finals every single year [laughter] but putting it together is such— It’s complicated. We are very lucky in that, in general, I would say the content strategy community as a whole is an extremely curious, driven community who are constantly looking to answer more and more complicated questions. And so we’re lucky in the quality of talk proposals and conversations that are brought to the proposal process. Once we have our speakers selected, which is, I have to say, especially over the last couple of years, every time we sit back and look at who we’ve selected and the scope and the shape of the program, we’re just like, “Oh my gosh. We’re so lucky that we get to do this.” I mean, it is just mind-blowing that we have this opportunity and this responsibility, I guess, to get these voices on stage and to help shape and lead this conversation, it’s just— We just take that really seriously. But after that, we actually a couple of years ago introduced coaching, one-on-one coaching, which I do, which is one of my favorite things about my job as a whole. And so I will schedule two half-hour coaching sessions with every speaker that wants to take advantage of it, which is most of them at this point. I actually have the good fortune— I’m in an unusual position in that I’ve spoken at well over 100 conferences over the last several years. I have seen probably several hundred, if not thousands of presentations. I understand at this point the anatomy of a good talk. I also, because the role that I play and the conversations that I seek out in the larger content strategy community and the fact that I also am doing consulting so I’m privy to what’s going on within organizations, have a really good sense of what the pain points are and what people are excited about. And so I am able to— And I will say I have the distinct honor of sitting down with our speakers and going through the drafts of their talks and sort of helping draw out of them what it is that they’re trying to say and help them shape the best way to say it. And that has counted. Giving people the ear of another speaker, it really helps, so. [Todd] That’s a significant time commitment. [Kristina] Oh, it’s the best. I love it so much. Are you kidding? I learned so much from those conversations, and it is just, it’s a thrill. It’s a thrill to sit and listen to somebody else’s passion and expertise and gain their insights. I love it. [Todd] How cool. You mentioned having formed a deep understanding of the anatomy of a good talk. What is the anatomy of a good talk? [Kristina] I think that what I find is that speakers who immediately can get up on stage and frame up a problem or tell a story that other people are like, “Oh, I see myself in that.” That is the number one thing. I mean, people who hop up on stage and are just like, “Now, we’re going to talk about the methodology for X, Y, and Z.” If you don’t start with sort of, “Here’s the problem that I’m going to help you solve that I know you’re all facing,” or, “Here’s a challenge that I found myself in and what I needed to do to work my way out of it.” I mean, you have to be a person when you get on the stage. People are not there to listen to a biology lecture, right? They are there to learn from peers and folks they look up to. [Todd] One of the things I’ve seen and a mistake I’ve committed myself in the past is people try to be far too comprehensive in such a small amount of time, and the really good talks I’ve seen do one of just a few things. They teach one very simple thing, like how to do one simple thing you will definitely feel comfortable doing in the future. Or it eliminates the fear of trying that fear. Or it inspires somebody to action. And those are the three things that I would usually give somebody when I was giving advice on how to give a talk. But then somebody raised something else with me that I thought was really interesting, and that is it also—a good talk can provide somebody with the evidence or the backing to then go back to their job to defend a position or to— [Kristina] Totally. [Todd] Right? [Kristina] Yeah. Absolutely. And I will say that like 80% of the people who come to Confab every year have never been to Confab before. But a huge percentage of them work at organizations that have been sending employees to Confab since the very beginning. So we have a huge return rate of organizations. And I think that, to your point, what happens is that people come, and they are given the words to talk about the work that they do. They are being validated by other people who are maybe facing the same thing. They are sharing war stories and success stories with other people. So you’re absolutely right. To have somebody on the stage say, “Here is a good way to do it,” and be able to come back and say, “Hey, this–” even if that attendee has been saying, “Hey, here is a good way to do it,” being able to bring back the deck that backs them or that adds context or substance or whatever is priceless. Yeah. I will say that, adjacent to that, one of the biggest pieces of feedback that we get from people every year is simply, “I am so grateful that other people are going through what I’m going through. I am so excited to talk to other people who are doing what I’m doing because I haven’t had a way to talk about it. I feel that I found community.” I mean, it’s just really— [Todd] Yes. The community side. [Kristina] And I will say that this kind of leads into then a conversation about our new conference, Button, which is specifically focusing on product content strategy, content design, and UX writing because this is a community of people who have been very active across social channels and who have a Slack workspace of well over 5,000 people who don’t have any place together. And product content strategy is not what we do at Brain Traffic, but what we have done, we’ll continue to do is to bring together and create spaces for our larger community to exchange ideas, to hang out and make new friends, to vent, to set best practices, to articulate new challenges. And that is what we want to do at Button is for the thousands of people who are wrangling with content within product ecosystems, they need a place to call home, and we’re hoping to provide that for them at Button. [Todd] And what are some key dates for Button so that people can keep it on their radar? [Kristina] We are hosting Button in Seattle on October 19th, 20th, and 21st this year. [Todd] Fantastic. [Kristina] The year 2020. [Todd] And where can they get more information? [Kristina] You can get more information at buttonconf—so B-U-T-T-O-N-C-O-N-F—dot com. Tickets go on sale on March 23rd, so it’s still a little ways out, but more information comes every once in a while coming up to it. I will also say that we announced this—I announced it on my Twitter feed. Brain Traffic tweeted, and then I put it on LinkedIn. And almost overnight we had 1,500 email subscribers. Yeah. And it got like 20,000 views on my LinkedIn. But I mean, people are pretty psyched about this conference. [Todd] Right. They’re hungry for product content. [Kristina] They are! [Todd] That’s really cool. Well, congratulations on another successful endeavor. [Kristina] Well, let me do the conference first [laughter]. [Todd] Okay. Okay. It will be great. [Kristina] We’re all at Brain Traffic—our conference team is just super, super excited, and we’ve opened up the call for proposals, and we’re getting tons of good talk submissions already. So it’s going to be a great event. [Todd] How cool. Well, thank you so much, Kristina, for your time today. We really appreciate it. This has been enlightening as always. So thank you everybody for listening and until next time, enjoy your content. [Voiceover] You’ve been listening to The Future of Content, a podcast from the Web Chefs at Four Kitchens. Hosted by Todd Nienkerk. Produced by PJ Hagerty. Theme song is PAFRATY by DJ Listo. Find us on Twitter at FoCpodcast and get in touch by email at future@fourkitchens.com.Making the web a better place to teach, learn, and advocate starts here...
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